Von Classicalguitardelcamp.com , dort gab es schon solche Anfragen und Spezialisten, die das beantworten, Thomas

Hallo

Ich habe an die Ramirezgitarren auch keine besonderErinnerung.

Ich hatte eine Ramirez 4E, 1992 und mein Bekannter die 125 Anos, 2010.

Die 4E war in den Bässen schwächlich und hatte nix besonderes. Die Anos war ein Stück besser, aber im Vergleich zur Ramirez 1a, 1972 meines Lehrers nicht sehr unterschiedlich.

Ich denke, bei Ramirez ist so ein bisschen die Luft raus, und sehr überteuert. Da sind Hersteller wie Bernabe, Burguet und Contreras doch schon weiter vorn. Und Felipe Conde nicht vergessen

Hallo Thomas

Zur Matsuoka 41/380

Das ist eine M30 von Matsuoka, bisher hat niemand rausgebracht, warum er so merkwürdige Nummerierungen hergenommen hat ..
LG

Ich wechsle die Saiten, wenn ich merke, daß ich sie ein paar Tage nicht mehr stimmen muß...

Es gibt kein nur IRW, das ist edles Holz, hat mit dem Klang so gut wie nix zu tun...

Und egal, welche Saiten man bei manchen Gitarren aufzieht.
Da ist bei manchen Gitarren einfach von Haus aus zu wenig Potential da.

Saitenempfehlung für Vintage Gitarren

Knobloch Strings
Double Silver Nylon OZ 400ADQ

Klingen sehr gut auf Kohno und Asturias

Sehr ausgewogener Klang

Hier ist die Liste der guten japanischen Luthier.
Die meisten werden es nicht über den Teich schaffen, aber wer mal eine findet... Bitte anspielen und berichten!

Akihiko Yamashita
Akio Naniki
Alberto Nejime Ohno
Atsushi Nakamura
Daisuke Kuriyama
Eisuke Nishitani
Hakusui Imai
Harutaka Nagasue
Hideo Ida
Hideyuki Ezaki
Hiroaki Honma
Hirohiko Hirose
Hiroshi Abe
Hiroshi Komori
Hiroshi Tamura
Hiroumi Yamaguchi
Hisao Hoshina
Ichizo Kobayashi
Iuchi Koji
Jun Nakano
Jun Ohnishi
Kaoru Ono
Katsumi Arai
Kawada Ikkoh
Kazuo Hashimoto
Kazuo Ichiyanagi (Kazuo Toshi)
Kazuo Sato
Kazuo Yairi
Kazuyuki Kawamura
Ken Tamura
Kenji Watanabe
Kimiyoshi Noda
Kiyohide Oku
Kiyohide Shoji
Kodama Kanoh
Kuniharu Nobe
Kunihiko Ichiyanagi
Kuniyoshi Matsui
Makoto Teramachi
Masafumi Nobe
Masahiro Tanabe
Masaji Nobe
Masaki Sakurai
Masamichi Kinoshita
Masanobu Matsumura
Masaru Kohno
Masaru Matano
Masashi Takata
Mass Hirade
Michihiro Matsuda
Mikio Hongo
Mitsuharu Hoshi
Mitsuru Tamura
Naohiro Kawashima
Narutaka Nagasue
Noboru Nakayama
Norimitsu Tsutsumi
Osam Nakayama
Osamu Nakade
Osamu Sakamoto
Osamu Tomita
Rokutaro Nakade
Ryoji Matsuoka
Saburo Nogami
Sadao Yairi
Sakae Ishii
Sakazo Nakade
Satoru Sakuma
Seiji Inaba
Seiji Kamata
Seizo Shinano
Shigeru Namiki
Shoji Nobe
Shuichi Komiyama
Shunpei Nishino
Shunsuke Yokoo
Sumio Kurosawa
Tadao Sato
Taizo Minezawa
Takahide Kaneko
Takao Yamanashi
Takashi Miura
Taro Maruyama
Tasaki Morio
Tatsuhiko Hirose
Teruaki Nakade
Teruji Yamano
Tetsuo Kurosawa
Toshihiko Nakade
Toshihiko Tanaka
Toshihiko Tokugawa
Toshihito Maruyama
Toshio Kato
Tsunao Kubo
Tsunesaburo Kurosawa
Wataru Tsuji
Yasuyuki Abe
Yoshifumi Matsumoto
Yoshihiro Inaba
Yoshimasa Kuroda
Yoshimitsu Hoshino
Yoshinori Morii
Youhei Nishino
Yuichi Imai
Yuichi Nagasaki
Yukihide Chai
Yukinobu Chai
Yukio Nakade
Yutaka Iwata

Hallo RWE

Ich denke, die Streuung beim Gitarrenbau war viel höher als heutzutage. Hanika baut am laufenden Band gleichklingende Instrumente. Wer Hanikas mag, kann fast blind kaufen.
Wer das gut im Griff hatte, war wohl Kohno, Matano, K.Yairi, die ja für USA und den europäischen Markt bauten.
Es gab ca. 30-40 ähnlich gute Luthier in Yapan, die aber nur in Japan verkauften!

Wenige dieser guten Gitarren haben es nach Europa geschafft.
Und ja, die M100 war ja die Spitzenklasse von Matsuoka!
Ich mag auch brasilianisches Rosenholz , aber für den Klang spielt es so gut wie keine Rolle, ob das laminiert oder massiv war.

Ich denke, wie ja andere schrieben, das die Japaner für unsere Breiten den Rücken laminiert hatten, wegen der Luftfeuchtigkeit.
Aber natürlich wollten die beweisen, daß es auch anders geht, deshalb auch massives Rosenholz bei den Höherwertigen Modellen, ausser wieder Kohno.
Der hat immer nur massiv gebaut, warum??? Weil er es konnte,hehe.

Ganz interessant dieser Matsuoka post

Since 1986 Matsuoka Co. was managed by Ryoji's son and also great luthier Toshiaki Matsuoka. Soon after Ryoji's death in September of 2014, his workshop's website disappeared from internet and production of "made in Japan" Matsuoka guitars ended. As of today, all brand new Matsuoka guitars available on Japanese market are made in China. Available models are: M70(MH70) through M180(MH180).


In early 1970s Matsuoka guitar models were labelled as No. xx without letter M at the beginning. This system changed in 1975/76 when Matsuoka changed his label design and started making regular M xx models along with more luxurious and higher priced No. xx models. No.50 or No.60 guitars from that era (mid1970s) were made differently and were of much higher grade than regular line M50 or M60 guitars.

Until 1975 models No.50 and No60 were made with figured Brazilian Rosewood double backs (2 layers of laminated woods, not glued together) with double sides (outer layer laminate, inner layer solid wood) and Ebony fingerboards. Many of them were made with ornamental extras & often with nicely carved headstocks. In mid to late 1970s regular models M50 & M60 were often made with laminated straight grain Brazilian Rosewood b/s. Matsuoka model No. 80 from 1973-1974 was made with solid Brazilian Rosewood b/s, while No. 80 from 1978 was made with solid Indian Rosewood b/s. Regular model M80 from 1978 was made with laminated Indian Rosewood .
Original Matsuoka bracing can be described as simplified lattice bracing (2 horizontal cross braces, 6 thin vertical parallel braces + one light diagonal treble brace). Spruce top is so thin that one can see the outline of individual braces.

Double back Ramirez guitars made in 1960s and 1970s, were sold at prices equivalent to today’s $10000. Since mid1960s many guitars made by Japanese luthiers were built that way. Double construction back and sides greatly eliminate damping of the sound by player’s body, hence greatly enriches and amplifies the sound.

This guitar can easily beat not only many more expensive guitars made by Japanese elite luthiers of that era but also many modern era guitars made by Spanish elite luthiers and priced $8000+. This Matsuoka No60 offers high volume combined with simply breathtaking tonality. Its basses are "cello-like" (deep, somewhat metallic, with a bounty of overtones). Trebles are round, ultra-sweet, yet ultra-clear. All notes are well balanced with superb clarity & separation, and superb sustain.

This guitar was priced 60 000 yen in 1975, when Starting Yearly salary of Japanese College Graduate was 79 200 yen. Very similar construction guitar made by Hiroshi Tamura was labelled as P100 and priced 100 000yen.

What it really means is that this No60 guitar was way underpriced for what it really represents. The major reason for that was that in those days Ryoji Matsuoka wasn’t considered as leading guitar maker and was still greatly dependent from his distributor Mr. Shiro Arai. Therefore, while fighting for his independence, Matsuoka had to produce wonderful instruments but price them very moderately. This promotional campaign was actually a very successful one. The greatness of Ryoji’s guitars was recognized by many international players and this led to great profits in following years.

It is very important to emphasize that due to total lack of material guitars with high grade Brazilian Rosewood laminates are no longer made in Japan. Even those made with single layer laminates b/s are available only by special order and priced at least $4000. The truth is that guitars with backs & sides made from high grade Brazilian Rosewood laminates sound very close to far more expensive guitars made with solid Brazilian Rosewood.



It is actually very hard to find guitars with solid Indian Rosewood b/s that, regardless of their price, would sound better than guitar you are looking at.

Real Value of Japanese Vintage Guitars

The key to understand value of vintage Japanese guitars is to acknowledge galloping devaluation of Japanese yen in 1960s & 1970s. This devaluation was somewhat slower in 1980s. The best measure of this devaluation is Starting Yearly Salary of Japanese College Graduate (SYSJCG).

SYSJCG in in 1965 was 19 600 yen, in 1969 – 34 600 yen, in 1970 39 200 yen, in 1972 – 62 300 yen, in 1975 79 200 yen, in 1977 121 200 yen and in 1980 - 163 000 yen.

During 1960s and most of 1970s model numbers of Japanese guitars were strictly interconnected with their prices in Japanese yen. In late 1970s and during following decades model numbers were no longer strictly associated with their prices. Many Japanese guitar makers introduced model names instead of model numbers. Others were still using model numbers with addition of letter abbreviations or other symbols.

The best and only logical approach while evaluating real value (real grade) of vintage Japanese guitar is to compare its price in Japanese yen with SYSJCG during the year guitar was made.

Any guitar priced 100 000 in 1970 (labelled usually as No10) would be priced 200 000 yen in 1975 (relabeled to No20 or 2000), 300 000 yen in 1977 (labelled as No3, No30 or 3000). Starting in 1977 Masaru Kohno introduced his model No50 priced at 500 000 (skipping theoretical model 40). Soon other famous Japanese luthiers did the same. By 1983 Kohno started using model names instead numbers and was raising their prices as he was pleased. Naturally soon other Master luthiers did the same.

Knowing all of that, you can bet on that Masaru Kohno No50 made in 1982 is practically the same quality as Kohno No15 made in 1972, or Kohno no20 made in 1975 or Kohno No30 made in 1977. I know it for a fact.

The lowest grade models currently made by Matsuoka workshop are M75 and MH75. They are commonly considered as “beginner guitars”. Matsuoka model M30 made in 1973 is simply far, far better instrument. It is naturally better than model M50 made in 1977, model 80 made in 1982 or model M100 made in 1990. At present, the highest grade Matsuoka models are M300 and MH300. They absolutely stand no chance in competition with model M150 made in 1975… or model M200 made in 1977.

It is very important to mention that if modern era luthiers are using 40 years old woods to make a classical guitar, its price is at least $8000.

Some relevant info:

Ryoji Matsuoka was well known Japanese guitar maker who has been producing guitars in Nagoya, Japan since the 1960s. Nagoya is Japan’s 4th largest city and a major industrial port city located on the main island of Honshu in Aichi prefecture.
The Nagoya/Aichi/Kani area (Kani is the prefecture next to Aichee) is one of Japan’s major musical instrument making centers. The city and the outlying areas have a long classical guitar making history with many small shops producing guitars. Major guitar and violin makers include Matsumoku Industrial, Suzuki, Takaharu, Sada Yairi, Kazuo Yairi (Kani), Daion, Yamaki, Ibanez/Hoshino, and Ryoji Matsuoka. Additionally, there are numerous small guitar shops and factories that contract to larger firms, such as Yamaha in Hamamatsu.
The Ryoji Matsuoka guitar works was a small scale guitar manufacturer with less than 15 employees. For a few years during the 1960s and early 1970s, Matsuoka produced the higher end Aria guitar models for Shiro Arai, founder of Aria . These Aria models either have Ryoji Matsuoka's name on the label or are marked RM with a red stamp on the neck block. Matsuoka also made some models for Ibanez, including a few steel string flatop and archtop models.
During the early 1970s, Matsuoka produced Fleta, Hauser, Kohno and Rubio. The copies of Kohno guitars with 2 ebony strips in the necks and higher grade spruce tops were made in much greater numbers than copies of other luthiers. They were also sold at higher price.

From 1975 to 1980 the company produced their own line of guitars: the concert, artist and artisan series.
The Concert series includes the M20 (solid spruce top, nato neck), M30 (solid spruce top, mahogany neck), M40 (solid spruce top, mahogany neck). All 3 models have laminated rosewood back and sides and rosewood fingerboards.
The Artist Series includes the M50 and M60. These guitars have better quality spruce tops and were made in several versions. Some of them, less expensive versions, were made with laminated Indian Rosewood or laminated Jacaranda back and sides, ebony fingerboards and plain neck. On the other end of the spectrum there were also all solid versions with Solid Indian rosewood or solid Jacaranda back and sides, with one or double Ebony reinforcement in the neck.
The Old World Artisan Series includes the M70 and M80, made with all solid woods and one-piece mahogany necks.
During the 1980s and early 1990s, Matsuoka models included the M50, M60, M70, M80, M100, M150, M200, and M300 with Ramirez style headstock and models MH100, MH150, MH200, MH300 with Hauzer style headstock. All of them were made with solid Spruce tops. M50, M60, M70 were made either with laminated back and sides or as all solid guitars. All other models were all solid wood guitars.

In the late 1990-ties models M65 and M75 with Cedar tops were added to the production line mostly with laminated back and sides.

Ich hoffe, ich habe alles gut erklärt!

Hallo, ich habe über die Jahre verschiedene Vintage Gitarren aus Japan besessen.

Die beste davon war eine Matsuoka M30 von 1974, die viel besser klang, als die Ramirez 1a meines Lehrers.
Mein Sohn hat sich damals draufgesetzt, das wars damit.Eine Ramirez 4E von 1990 klang flach mit wenig Lautstärke, man zahlt für den Namen reichlich mit.Eine Ibanez GA1200, Master Guitar von Matsuoka gebaut, war nix.... Die nächste war eine Matsuoka No60 von 1974, massives brasilianisches Palisanderholz, die war sehr gut.

Bässe voll und Höhen singend, aber halt große Mensur...Verkauft zugunsten einer Kohno Concert von 1982.. Sehr guter Ton und Lautstärke, Höhen singend, guter Sustain. Kohno Gitarren sind teuer aber gut...Besonders die alten, Modell 30 und 50.Kohno wußte, was er tat.

Verkauft an Sicca Guitars und vorher eine Asturias AST40 Baujahr vor 1976 zugelegt, persönlich von Matano eingestellt

Die war etwas schlechter in der Höhe, kostet aber nur ein viertel der Kohno. Masaru Matano baute sehr gute Gitarren, die immer noch unterbewertet sind.
Momentan überarbeite icheine Carulli H300, gebaut von K.Yairi 1973 für den deutschen Markt.

Das mit dem Gehalt eines Studenten im Vergleich zum Preis ist natürlich ein totaler Quatsch. Wenn man googlet, findet man Monatsverdienste um 1970 von ungefähr 100000 Yen.

Die Schlussfolgerung von mir ist , dass die japanischen Gitarrenbauer zwischen 1970 und 1975 keinen Markt in den USA und Europa hatte, so dass jede von ihnen gebaute Gitarre völlig unterbewertet war. Um einen guten Ruf zu erlangen, mussten die berühmten japanischen Gitarrenbauer beste Gitarren zu niedrigen Preisen bauen. Und sie hatten viel gutes altes Holz, mehr als die spanischen Gitarrenbauer ...

Die Taurus 59 wurde seinerzeit von Antonio Picado gebaut, in seiner Werkstatt und sann an Taurus geliefert...